Kris Safarova  00:59

Welcome to the Strategy Skills podcast. I’m your host, Kris Safarova, and our podcast sponsor today is StrategyTraining.com. If you want to strengthen your strategy skills, you can get the Overall Approach Used in Well-Managed Strategy Studies. It’s a free download we prepared for you, and you can get it at firmsconsulting.com/overallapproach. You can also get McKinsey and BCG-winning resume, which is a resume that got offers from both of those firms. And you can get [email protected] forward slash resume PDF. And lastly, you can get a copy of a book we co-authored with some of our amazing clients, amazing listeners. And you can get it at firmsconsulting.com/gift. It is called Nine Leaders in Action, and it has actually went the number one bestseller on Amazon, and today we have with us Bree Groff, who is a workplace culture expert and author of Today Was Fun. She has spent her career guiding executives at companies such as Microsoft, Google, Target, Hilton, through periods of complex change. Bree, welcome. So you have advised leaders at massive companies that everyone knows. Which of the blind spots have you most often encountered there?

Bree Groff  02:14

Ah, blind spots from leaders. So through the lens of the book and what I think most about employee experience and culture in these big corporate environments, they often feel big in corporate right like understandably so, some more than others, but there’s suits and ties, there’s very formal looking strategy presentations, there’s jargon and buzzwords, and everyone sort of tries to make their work look like it fits in. I think the blind spot that a lot of these companies have, both internally when it comes to culture, but also externally when it comes to customers is that people conformity feels safe and professionalism feels safe, but it’s not actually what people crave. So when I look at employees or all the work I’ve done in employee engagement and culture, employees want to feel alive in their work. They want to feel themselves. This is not to say you have to bring every last part of yourself to work, but they want to feel that they can be creative and share their ideas and sit how they want and maybe not have perfect posture in every meeting. And similarly, customers are attracted to brands and organizations that are unapologetically themselves, that exude whatever point of view they have in the world, skill set that they have in the world, that they make that very clear. So not only from like an advertising or branding perspective, but you think of like original Google and how it was, like, kind of weird, but super smart, and you have this adjective Googly, and there’s something compelling about that. And so when I think of blind spots in organizations, the more professional organizations get, the more they have to lose. And so sometimes, the more they start to play it safe, avoid taking risks, avoid anything that doesn’t feel tried and true. And then similarly, employees start to feel the same like, I don’t want to be the first one to mess this up, so I’m going to make my presentations and reports and work, whatever your work is, sort of look like how we’ve done it in the past, and what I found is that that stifles that sense of vibrancy from employees, and it also stifles the connection you might have had with clients or customers. And so my work that I feel passionate about is helping people channel that sense of. Currency so that they are enjoying their days at work and all the customers and clients out there that they can feel that from the organization, like, Oh, these people are having a good time. They are rocking it, jamming out, and all the notes available to them. And I think not only is that a more successful strategy for a business. But it’s also just a more fun one to go to work every day and feel like you are creating and inventing, imagining a world that you want to live in, and then you’re going about building it. And so that’s the world I’m hoping to usher in.

Kris Safarova  05:37

Then working with those leaders at Google, Microsoft, Hilton, and I know you touched on it a little bit, but I would love for you to build on it. Are there specific traits you noticed in leaders who bring themselves to work and work joyfully and also make it hospitable environment for their teams to do the same?

Bree Groff  05:58

Yeah, so some of the leaders that I found most inspiring are the ones that they know how to not take themselves too seriously, and they know how to really go big. So for example, one of my favorite clients ever this woman, Melissa Goldie. She was the Chief Marketing Officer of Calvin Klein when I worked with her, and continues to be a friend today. So I’m sure she won’t mind me telling all of her stories, she was so remarkable because even though she had a huge brand on her hands at a time when they were really accelerating growth, again, she would always say things like, there’s No such thing as a fashion emergency, which, you know, which is true, right? Like nobody was dying, she knew that they weren’t saving lives. And so you wouldn’t say the same thing if you worked at like a cancer center or, you know, but in so many contexts, the work, the experience of working, can be a lot lighter and more joyful than we make it, because work will always be stressful. There’ll always be pressures. Of course, you want the stock price higher, but she never worked as if she felt that way. She always worked as if her mind was on, what’s the next? Cooler, more interesting, more compelling thing that we could build. And so at the time, she was like, yeah, let’s get Justin Bieber in here in his underwear. Like, that’s what we’re gonna be focusing on. And obviously, you know, she’s in marketing. It’s, you know, some people are like, Oh, sure, marketing, that’s like, a you get to be creative over there and go to happy hours and whatnot. But I think there’s lots of leaders that I’ve worked with that have that same sort of attitude of, what’s the best thing that could happen here? How can we more fully express our creativity or ingenuity in the situation, as opposed to a risk mitigation strategy, which is important, and obviously you want your like risk professionals to be thinking with that hat on. But you do not need the entire organization to be thinking that way in terms of, how do we not screw up the success that we’ve had to date? And so that’s sort of that like brand of optimism, and it’s even a little bit of casualness, and not casualness about, I don’t know, the mission or the business, but about, about not needing to perform business or perform professionalism in a way that’s breeds conformity. It’s about, let’s get rid of the ties like, let’s just talk about what is the most impactful, compelling work that we could do, and the work that would really light our team up. That’s always a great place to start of like, what it what would make a great day for us? It’s probably the work that’s like, interesting, different, exciting, compelling, and that’s going to translate in out in the marketplace as well.

Kris Safarova  09:07

Do you remember when you yourself started removing certain things from your work life that allowed you to enjoy your work a lot more?

Bree Groff  09:16

Um, that’s interesting. Well, I suppose so, you know, before I was at SY Partners, I was the CEO of a consultancy called Nobel collective, and in some way it’s like, it’s easy to be the CEO, and wanted to work differently, because you don’t feel like people are looking down upon you. But, yeah, yeah, I think that was the first time where I felt like, you know, I can wear what I want. I don’t. My brain works just as well in my slouchy sweater that I’m wearing today as it does in a blazer. I’m just as smart. I have just as good things to say. And so why not? Because. Comfortable, like the clothing. Of course, it’s like, it’s sort of an easy example, but it’s indicative of sort of a larger sense of, how do I need to perform in some certain way, and can I get rid of some of that? And so, so even Nobel’s founder would often sign his emails with Ahoy, which is a totally ridiculous way to sign an email, but it was actually quite endearing, and it would get clients attention, and especially like in a sales conversation, where we’re trying to make our own distinct point of view known and be remembered, it was super helpful. And so I thought, You know what I don’t mean, sincerely or warmest regards, that that’s all pleasant, but pleasant is just not very fun. And so these sorts of on this on some level, like sort of surface level, you know, business activities, they don’t really matter, right? Like, how you sign, but it speaks to sort of a different those things gave me more permission to not only sign my email differently, but also to show up in the work differently. So I felt more confident proposing the radical ideas that I actually felt like might work, as opposed to thinking like, Oh, nobody at McKinsey would share this, or nobody like the very professional professional services firms. And not only were those crazier ideas impactful and we did really, really good work, but they also got me out of bed every day because I was excited to try something new. And so I think more that we can model that as leaders, as managers, whether it’s as you know, as little as you know, wearing some stretch joggers to work, because maybe you’ll go for a run after work, those things start to permeate a culture and create a culture of permission and humanity and fun in the workplace.

Kris Safarova  12:06

What are some of the ways you signed your email with?

Bree Groff  12:10

Oh, now. Oh, that’s a good question. A lot of times I just write Bree like that. Said, I will confess once in a while, if I’m feeling fancy, I’ll say warmly, because I think it’s kinder. It’s more of a little bit of a hug. But yeah, sometimes I don’t sign them at all because an email that feels a little bit more like a text message, I think is more fun, and it’s like a little bit more banter back and forth. I never picked up on ahoy. It never really felt like me, but I love that. If ahoy is your thing, then I think you should do it.

Kris Safarova  12:47

Are there any other interesting ways you saw people sign the emails, or anything unusual that they did in emails or communication that made it stand out and definitely unique, and you could see that person as being themselves?

Bree Groff  13:03

Yeah, you know, honestly, like, email banter is one of my favorite art forms, so I’ll try and synthesize some of the things. You know, I do love a first name exclamation point. So it’s Bree because when you see your name like someone else writing your name with an exclamation like, it just kind of makes you feel good, like someone’s excited and, you know, they say, like you’re anyone’s name is their own favorite word, right? Like seeing it out in the world.

Kris Safarova  13:30

I have a friend who does that. I love it.

Bree Groff  13:32

Yeah, makes you feel good and like people like to be liked. Of course, a lot of times I’ll, I’ll just do a cold open with wherever, whatever I’m doing, wherever I am. So instead of like, hi, I hope you’re doing well, I’ll start with like, I look like a wet dog because it is raining non stop in New York for the last two days. Anyway, how are you? Hope you’re dry, if you could send over the blah, blah blah, like it’s just a way to humanize an email, and also it sort of puts me in a time and space. So often our email communications are, they’re formal and sort of floaty, but if I can connect with someone, and if someone is imagining me with like, sopping wet hair writing this email, like puts a little smile on their face, and it reminds them that I’m a human, and I don’t do this just so they’ll return my email or send me the thing. I do it because I like to be seen as a human, and I also hope it gives them permission to be seen as a human as well, which is just a better way to do business, I think, is to get to be humans at work. Because we are humans at work.

Kris Safarova  14:47

I love this example. Can you give us some examples of people communicating in unusual way when it comes to verbal communication, whether on the phone, on Zoom or in person?

Bree Groff  14:58

Sure. Yeah. Yeah, so there’s little like words, or sometimes I like to start with yo, which is different than like, hi everyone. Let’s get started. I also one of my favorite tactics, I guess, for creating a team, a cozy team culture with high psychological safety, is what I call the check in. It’s sort of out there in the business, either sometimes people call it fist to five or finger shoot, but it’s at the top of a meeting, instead of just jumping into business, or maybe like chit chat. And only two people are chit chatting, and everyone else is just like listening to them chit chat. Instead, you say, Okay, how’s everybody doing a scale of one to five. Go put it on your hand, and they’ll hold up, like, four fingers, two fingers, three fingers. And it’s it doesn’t have to be work. It doesn’t have to be life. It just be both. And then we run around the room, and each person says, in about 30 seconds, why they’re that number? So, oh, I’m a two. I got a new puppy. The puppy was up all night barking, and I’ve gotten very little sleep. Or, I’m a four, I’m excited about the meeting we have this afternoon, but not a five because I’m, like, also a little nervous about it. Or, or I’m a five because it’s my birthday this weekend, and I’m so in, you know, five minutes at the top of a meeting. All of a sudden, now I know about this person’s dog. I know how this person is feeling about a meeting that’s going on later today. I know it’s this person’s birthday. Like we’ve just humanized the room, and we’ve also gotten all that stuff off of our brains. And so if somebody needs to say, like, you know, I’m camera off, I’m a one I threw out my back so I’m horizontal. That’s much different than thinking of them like, Oh, they’re not committed. Why aren’t they camera on? You know? Like, are they paying attention? But now, you know, they’ve got a bad back, and so you feel much differently. So just even like a little tool like that changes the whole the whole course of the rest of that meeting and conversation, because you’ve humanized first, and now you can speak up again. And now it feels a little bit more safe to say you’re worried about something, because you said it at the top of the meeting, and you were met with support.

Kris Safarova  17:13

I was thinking of you yesterday because I was watching at night a show you probably know it, The Office, yes, of course. And Michael Scott was saying, work supposed to be a place where you come to make your dreams come true. Do you think that if companies measure joy with the same rigor they measure productivity? What do you think would happen if we did that?

Bree Groff  17:38

Well, one, I would be very happy. I think it’s a great idea. I’ve also, I’ve often wondered, after coming up here, deciding on the title for the book, today was fun. I wondered what would happen if that were a metric that companies measured at the end of each day, every employee gets a little pulse survey. That’s like, today was fun? Yes or No, pick one. But similarly, like more longitudinally, if we measure joy like I feel passionate about this, not just because employee engagement drives business performance, and there’s loads of research out there that says it does and having a best friend at work drives performance. And all inclusion, all these things make your business better. So that, to me, I’m like, case closed. We know it does. What I’m more interested in is, how do we make sure that we are spending our finite days on the planet in a way that’s worthy of our lives, and we don’t get that many Mondays in our lives, right? Like 4000 or so, like we’re gonna run out at some point. And so I’m one fascinated by why we are pursuing profitability and GDP in an organization where people are miserable, and what happens when we start to prioritize the fun and joy in our days, because I’m already confident it’s going to drive business results. But I’m interested in what does that do to the experience of being a human at work every day, and further, when we think about what’s fun like when we’re having a fun day at work? If we’ve solved for that, we’ve solved for like, 10,000 other things that are important because we’re not having fun. If there’s poor communication, we’re not having fun. If there’s lacking decision making, we’re not having fun if, frankly, your business is down. That’s not fun either. And so for to optimize for joy and fun means you’re all you’re sort of automatically optimizing for all of the other things that make a business successful. And so I think it’s a great idea, and I. Hope, I hope people start to do it more.

Kris Safarova  20:02

How much of workplace suffering do you think is self imposed versus structural?

Bree Groff  20:09

Yeah, some of both. So when I think of self imposed meaning, like I human employee go to work every day, am I making my own life miserable? I never want to make people feel like it’s their fault for not having fun at work. But I do think unless we believe it’s possible to have a good day at work, to have fun at work, that unless we believe that we deserve that from our days, we often don’t go out seeking it. So for example, if we believe work is boring and work is work, that’s why they call it work, then if we have to write 10 performance reviews, we’re gonna probably sit at our desk with our like, hunchbacks and, you know, turn on our fluorescent light and, like, just try and, you know, get through those 10 performance reviews. If instead, I’m coming to the day thinking, I deserve to have fun, this is one of my finite days on this planet, and fun is possible, then what I’m thinking of is like, hey, you know colleague, Joe, I think you have some performance reviews to write too. I know it’s performance season. Do you want to go hang out in a cafe with me and, like, get some nice lot? Or maybe we can go to the park on our hot spots, and let’s just crank them out there together, and then, oh, then maybe once, every time we finish one, we give each other a high five. Like, that’s such a different vibe. And yet, the work is not functionally different. Like, you had a thing to do, and you’re completing it. But when we believe that fun is possible, it opens our eyes to like, Well, what else? What else could we do to make this more enjoyable? So that’s sort of the human side. Is it self imposed? Like sometimes, but I think that’s what I’m trying to help with, is to open people’s sort of imaginations to like, how could we do this? The more fun way, structurally, certainly. I mean, there’s, I almost don’t know where to start here, because there’s like, a million different ways that we’ve structured organizations that don’t make a ton of sense. So even just like the idea that we have adopted the factory model of work, of like, you’re going to work for these hours straight from nine to five, cranking out as much as you can. If I don’t see you at your desk, there’s some things. And then we’ve just taken that to knowledge work, like, it’s like our brains don’t work that way. Really. Cal Newport writes so much about this, and like, what we need to do our most creative work. So, yeah, so sometimes structurally working, I would say, generously, 40 or 45 hours a week. But maybe it’s like 60 hours a week, non stop. Like, yes, that is structurally imposed, uh, misery, I guess maybe, hopefully not all misery. But, and then, of course, there’s other structural things as well, just like the way that we, I don’t know, do process approvals, or the way that we culturally expect people to look and sound and show up in a professional environment, that’s actually not functional at all, just performative. So the things I mentioned, like, you have to show up in a blazer, you have to be in your office, you have to be there in these hours. You should probably be typing all day. Doesn’t matter what you’re typing about, but type something so someone looks over, they’re like, yeah, she’s working. So there’s those sorts of things as well. I really wrote for the manager, the leader, somebody who has some scope of control over their day and the day of their team, or one or more direct reports. Because I think that’s that’s a really interesting like pivot population, a really interesting point of change, because if we can start getting, you know, middle managers, or even like leaders and senior leaders, to all individually, start prioritizing their own pleasure at work. Now you’ve started to shift a culture which it’s an important to do the structural things too. But I think on a day to day basis, if you see one person showing up in fuzzy socks, you know, to the office, that’s it. It’s a much less quantifiable, but a much more palpable feeling that this is a place where I can enjoy myself and where my humanity is welcome.

Kris Safarova  24:33

What question about work? Do you wish more people were asking themselves?

Bree Groff  24:39

I think it’s simply, am I having any fun? It’s like that, that song from, are you having any fun? What you getting ad lib, and yeah, I think it’s a question we forget to ask ourselves because we sometimes don’t feel like we deserve it. That like I, you know, I work for my paycheck and I. Also not advocating for our work being the sum of our identities, and that we need to find our passion and love what we do every single day, that actually can be a driver of overwork in many cases. But I think if we’re not asking ourselves, like very existentially, am I enjoying my days further? Am I enjoying the people I’m spending my days with, which is like sometimes our colleagues a lot more than our significant others or our friends? If we’re not asking those questions, then it’s very possible to go years on end not enjoying our lives. If we haven’t enjoyed five sevenths of our week, then that’s kind of it. And so not to say that everybody needs a new job or that you have to quit and reinvent yourself, but there’s in sort of like the performance review in the park example, there’s ways to find joy and pleasure and camaraderie in whatever situation you’re in, even if you’re a barista, you know, you can, like, really get into your latte art. There’s always a way. And so I I hope if people ask themselves that question more, they can take more of an active role in believing that they deserve to love their days, even Mondays, and then making that more true.

Kris Safarova  26:25

So if someone is listening to us right now and they’re thinking, okay, Bree you convinced me I’m not having enough joy in my days, and I need to change something, but I feel so overwhelmed. There’s so much to do, I just don’t have capacity to make many changes, because there’s just too much to do in a day. Where would you recommend they start?

Bree Groff  26:46

Sure, I get this. I’ve been there many times. So if you feel like you’ve gotten the mindset, yes, I deserve to love my days, then it’s a question. So there’s a big question and there’s smaller questions. The big question is, is your life set up the right one? And that’s sort of like a doozy, right? Like, is the profession, the organization that I’m at that’s like, is this working for me or not? That’s a bigger question. I don’t advocate people just go up and quit their job because unemployment is not more fun. So, but that’s a that’s a question to ask, and I think the answer is, if I if I’m not having fun most days, not every day, but most days, if that’s not true for, like, many, many months or years on end, time to make a change. Okay? So that aside, you’re in a situation that you’re like, I kind of like my job, I kind of like my colleagues, but shoot, it’s a lot like and I’m feeling overworked and overwhelmed, and now you want me to go sit in the park like it’s just not possible. So in those ways, I would just start with some micro acts of mischief, or micro acts of connection. And what those two things do, the micro acts of mischief, which I can speak more about. It gives us a sense of play and humanity and that sort of surge of adrenaline that comes with that comes with mischief. So I’ll speak about this one first. So this could be anything from just like, can you just rearrange the desks in your office a little bit so you can more easily chat with your work friends? I did this once facilities did not, was not happy with me, but it was fine, like I was not threatening anybody’s bottom line. And it was like, it felt a little naughty and fun, and like, Oh, we’re rearranging our chairs. It was very simple to do, but it felt playful and a little bit subversive. So that’s like a little micro active of mischief. Another might be, if you are in an office, like, can you play some music that you like? I don’t know, like, a little Beyonce or YouTube, or Pearl Jam, I don’t know, for throwback or, like, what is there something that you can do that changes the vibe from one of we are professionals doing professional work, to we’re just sort of humans. Here. There’s an example from Dr Peter Attia. He shares in his podcast that when he was doing surgeries at Johns Hopkins, surgeons often play music while they’re doing these, like 10 hour surgeries. Well, he and his colleagues would play clips of Napoleon Dynamite. This was like back in the day, and I love that story, because we think of surgeons as like, this is the highest stakes, the most important like we have to be on our game. And what they’re doing is they’re intro, they’re introducing something that’s making them laugh and making them laugh together. And so he said, and people asked him, you. Did it compromise any of the surgeries? And he said, No, there was actually, like 13 kidney replacements they did over the course of two days, and they all had exceptional outcomes, all done over Napoleon Dynamite. So that’s the first cat. It’s like a little bit of micro mischief. The second act is a little bit of connection that you might not have otherwise tried out. So, you know, it’s funny in the happiness research, or, like all the long longitudinal studies of happiness, like we really know what makes people happy, it’s just the relationships. It’s just the humans and the Connect. Like that’s like, done and dust like, we know that that’s true, but we forget that in the workplace, that our connections are also what’s going to make us happy for our 40 plus hours a week. And so those little acts of connection can be like the check in that I mentioned, just trying that today at the top of your call being like, Oh, I heard this thing on a podcast. Let’s try it. How’s everyone doing? Put on your hands, one through five. Go that alone. And if you can do that at least once a week, creates such a sense of camaraderie and like, even if things are stressful, you haven’t decreased your workload at all, but now you’re in it with other people. Now you feel seen and connected, and now you can complain about the workload together, and that actually makes a really big difference, or any other sort of there’s something I call like a love bubble, which is just like a little DM or Slack message or email or whatever it is to a colleague just to say something that you appreciated about them, or something they did. Like, hey, that point you made in that last meeting was, like, so sharp. Like, I feel really lucky to work with such a like, such a crazy, smart colleague. Like, that’s it. It just takes, like, a second or two, but now you’ve made their day. And you can imagine if someone did that for you, like, called out something that would make your day, and now you feel not only like buoyed, but you feel more connected. So of the things to try today, a little bit of mischief and a little bit of connection, they both go a really long way.

Kris Safarova  32:15

You earlier mentioned that customers are attracted to organizations that are unapologetically self, which is such an important topic, and you gave us one example, Google. I was wondering if you could speak more about it, if you could elaborate, because I think it also can give someone who is demanding a lot of themselves and feel no I cannot focus on experiencing joy at work. I have so much to do. It could give them a reason to prioritize becoming more joyful at work.

Bree Groff  32:43

Yeah. I mean, Google is such a great example. Like, I remember, I had a friend who worked at Google in recruiting, and she would always talk about how they recruited for Googliness, which I think, like I understood it to be some brand of, like, nerdiness, but in the good way. And like, they would give new Googlers, which they called New Nooglers, I think little like those hats with the spinners on top that look kind of dorky, but in an endearing way, that was that, and not that. I mean, there’s been so much written about like, you don’t need like, a culture fit like that. Sort of like is actually exclusionary, but the notion that you would not only allow people to wear a spinny hat at work, but you’re actually celebrating it, I think it’s those kinds of things, and now I’m speaking from like, an employer brand perspective, but that attract people to the organization in terms of, like a big organization itself being the best version of it. Actually, this is not a big organization, but I think a really good example, there’s a serial company called surreal, S-U-R-R-E-A-L. Think they’re out of the UK. They have the most ridiculous, funniest like marketing, social media strategy. Highly recommend looking it up when you So, this is an example. Isn’t an example of like a big corporate conglomerate, but there’s such a shining example of when you read their marketing copy, you’re like, craving their advertising. It’s just like, really different than like, Oh, I’m seeing another pop up ad from some company that I don’t care about because they’re so unapologetically themselves and themselves. Is rye city, satirical, lazy, I would even say. And if you look up their marketing, this will make sense, but they’re so popular, it’s so compelling, because you can feel the humanity coming through. And so when, whenever an organization can sort of decide. Display that to the world, the more magnetic that they become. And so if you’re having a hard time feeling like I’m having much fun at work or much joy at work, is there something about your organization that you do connect with that does feel like I’m excited to have more of this organization out in the world. I’m excited to support it, because ultimately, business is a form of self expression, which is a weird thing to say, but it is. It’s just self expression at scale. You’re expressing a point of view of like, this is how I think the world should be, and therefore I am offering a product or service in order to make that version of the world true. And I think when you think about business more in that way, it’s it’s enlivening, and it allows for a lot more possibilities.

Kris Safarova  35:51

Very true. So shifting gears a little bit. I wanted to ask you some questions about how you manage your life and so on, because you have so much that you are juggling, is there a habit that had the highest return on your well being?

Bree Groff  36:06

God, this is gonna sound boring, but exercise like honestly, like when I was really working, a lot like morning, noon and night, get my daughter to bed, go back to work. You know, every chance that I could get, like, I just wasn’t exercising because it felt like a distraction from work. I was like, fine, and I had colleagues who would exercise, and I would think, Oh, that you like, really have to prioritize that. But I would say, in the last, like, three years, two, three years, I’ve, like, really focused on most mornings I’m doing, like a 50 minute these, like dance classes that are really fun, or strength training. And I don’t know, maybe people listening to that are like, I don’t need someone else to tell me to exercise. But here’s my logic, if you were say, like a musician, a violinist, your instrument is your violin, right? And so if you are like a, you know, a concert violin, it like you’re playing on your Stradivarius, or you’re like, whatever you’re like, your instrument is, is crafted by the very best artisans, and you are taking very good care of it, because you spend decades of your life and loads of money and hours practicing your skill. Why would you diminish it on a crappy instrument? And yet, when we think of ourselves as knowledge workers, like what is our instrument? In our instrument? It’s our brains, it’s our bodies. It’s not even like our minds, which sounds ephemeral. It’s like the lump inside of our brain, inside of our skulls, which is very much our body. And so when I think about like, we want to be these like super successful knowledge working professionals, well then what are we doing to our instrument when we are just like, downing caffeine, shoving something in our mouth for lunch. If we even have time for lunch, we’re not exercising, we’re stressed, and you’re going for happy hours, you’re like, oh, I need a drink. It’s just, it’s you’re not taking care of the one thing that allows you to do your job, not to mention, like, all the sleep deprivation and all. And sometimes we think like, Oh, it’s fine. I’ll sleep when I’m dead, but my point of no sleep now while you’re doing the work, because that’s what allows you to go from good to excellent, is taking care of your instrument and so on. It like this has proven so true for me, I feel sharper, more energetic and more alive, and hopefully it’s gonna help me live longer, too. You know, it’s not all just for, like, for work, but even you know, there’s research now on exercise snacks making an enormous difference, meaning, like, even if you have 30 seconds for, like, some burpees, an exercise snack, if you will, makes an enormous difference to to your health, even in like long term studies.

Kris Safarova  39:05

I will next ask you one or two of my favorite questions. Over your entire lifetime, were there two, three aha moments, realizations that you feel comfortable sharing that really changed the way you look at life or the way you look at the business?

Bree Groff  39:21

Yeah. So yes, of course, the first one that comes to mind, and I write about it in the book, is the loss of my mother. So in 2022 she was diagnosed with a terminal cancer. My father already had Alzheimer’s, and I’m an only child, so I it was like an asteroid into my life. I took immediate leave from work, and then spent those next nine months taking care of my mom, until she passed away, and I still take care of my dad. And it was really on it. It was like, not only, incredibly. Um, not only did it like shape my worldview from like a human perspective, but my perspective on work as well. So, you know, often I would be she was treated at Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center in New York, we would be sitting there in the waiting room, and I would just look around and imagine, like, all of these people have some kind of prognosis, like, all of these people are scared out of their minds of like, what happens if this chemo doesn’t work? Or this, you know, and these doctors are doing like, these amazing feats of strength to add more days to their lives Now, contrast that with I would talk to a friend who’s, you know, in the workforce, and they’d say, like, Oh, my God, it’s not Friday yet. Can it please be Friday? They’re like, oh, when this quarter is over, it’s just gonna be so much better. And I realized like that sounded so normal to me before this experience with my parents and but now it sounded horrifying like we we are wishing away our days. We are actually trying to get through them as fast as possible, and but we’re gonna run out. Like, how do we have these doctors so desperately trying to save human days? And then when in our health, we’re just trying to, like, get through them, or at least, like, five sevenths of them, so that we can, you know, go on our vacation once a year or enjoy something on a Saturday night. And so it felt like to me, like I want to save human days, too. I just saved I try to save them in a different way, which is, I try to help people enjoy the days that they have, even their Mondays, even their Tuesdays. And so that was really the genesis of the book, but also my perspective on life, like when I wake up, even if it’s going to be a stressful day, even if I know I have things to do that I’m not sure about, or like, I don’t know, it feels kind of dicey, like I’m still really happy to be alive, like that’s never left me. And I was, actually, I talked to a doctor yesterday, like, for my checkup, and she was like, Okay, so tell me about your stress levels. And I’m like, I actually, I’m happy, like, I can manage my stress. And she’s like, well, you know, the body keeps score. And like, maybe you’re, you know, you’re sort of cheerful, but maybe underneath. And I was like, I don’t know how to say this more honestly, but I’m legit happy to be alive every day, even on a work day, even on a stressful day. And it was almost like unfathomable to her, like, Wait, isn’t everybody stressed out? And so I guess what I’m hoping to do is to help others find that sort of joy in life, even amidst the earning calls, the expense reports, like all of the stuff of life that will happen no matter what.

Kris Safarova  42:55

And if you could instill one belief in all of our listeners, hearts and minds.

Bree Groff  43:01

What would it be that you deserve to love your days, that you should love your life, that that’s not a luxury, that that’s something that you can achieve, even like one small park date with a colleague at a time. Because if we don’t believe it’s possible, if we believe that our work is the input to some businesses bottom line that we’ve lost before we’ve begun then we don’t even try, right? Like, but if we, if we believe that, like, No, I’m gonna enjoy myself, that like, my pleasure is important, which is like, pleasure is such a weird word to use with work, because it just feels it sounds so dissonant, like but I think it’s certainly work. Should be a pleasure, and not always, not all the time. You know, the first chapter of the book is called, most work, most days should be fine, but I hope that people start to feel like, No, I’m like, I deserve to have fun, and I’m going to figure out how to do it. And who’s with me?

Kris Safarova  44:01

Do you think being a mother has made you a better advisor?

Bree Groff  44:04

Oh, yeah, I think so. I know that what I hope for my daughter’s Ted now, Arden, like when I think about what her working life will be like. I mean, if the robots haven’t taken over, you know, just like, a distinct possibility. But like, if I think about, like, how do I want her to spend her days? Like, what do I think is the good life for her? It’s very much what I’m trying to advise businesses on, and hoping to support them on, them on as well, was just to be creating these cultures where you can feel like a vibrant version of yourself. And not only is that welcome, but it’s celebrated, and it’s more that. But it’s not that the humans are the inputs to the business. It’s more that businesses are just structures that allow us to work together with some semblance of order. And so if we think of like, okay, the businesses are actually for us, the humans, so that we can jam together and make cool things. That’s such a different point of view, and it’s also the one that I want for her, like I want her to feel like she can build really cool things, whatever that thing is for her, that she can put that out into the world, that she can create value, she can be part of the story of humanity, and she wasn’t a means to an end, and I think that’s what I want for her. It’s also what I want for myself and any colleague or a client that I’ve come across that we are more than means to an end and but and yet, that’s like a little bit subversive. In a culture where we think about humans as human resources, right, as something to be extracted, we ask the question, how can I get more out of my people? Which is the wrong question. If you ask me, the question is, how do I create the conditions so my people can do the best work of their lives and love their lives while they’re doing it? And yeah, so maybe if I do a good job, there’ll be more workplaces like that by the time she’s she’s out in the world.

Kris Safarova  46:27

Bree, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for everything you said. Where can our listeners learn more about you? Buy your book? Anything else you want to share now?

Bree Groff  46:35

Sure, yes, you can find me at breegroff.com. You can also sign up for my substack. There. You can find the book wherever books are sold out July 15 and LinkedIn as well.

Kris Safarova  46:52

Our guest today again have been Bree Groff, who is an author of Today Was Fun. And our podcast sponsor today is StrategyTraining.com. If you want to strengthen your strategy skills, you can get the Overall Approach Used in Well-Managed Strategy Studies. It’s a free download and you can get it at firmsconsulting.com/overallapproach. You can also get McKinsey and BCG-winning resume, which is a free download, and you can get it at firmsconsulting.com/resumePDF. And lastly, you can get a copy of one of the books we published with our amazing listeners and clients, and you can get it at firmsconsulting.com/gift. Thank you so much for tuning in, and I’m looking forward to connect with you all next time.