Kris Safarova  00:47

welcome to the strategy skills podcast. I’m your host, Kris Safarova, and our podcast sponsor today is strategytraining.com and we have some gifts for you. You can get five reasons why people ignore somebody in the meeting, and you can get it at F I R M S consulting.com, forward slash own the room. You can access episode one of how to build a consulting practice at F I R M S consulting.com, forward slash build. You can also get the overall approach used in well managed strategy studies at firms. Consulting.com forward slash overall approach. And you can get McKinsey and BCG winning resume example, which is an actual resume that led to offers from both of those firms. And you can get it at firms, consulting.com forward slash resume PDF. And today we have with us Dr Neri Khari sileman, who is an advisor, speaker, author, recently named as the winner of thinkers 50 Raider Award. She serves as an entrepreneurship expert at the University of Oxford and as an adjunct professor at ESCP Paris. Mary is also the founder of Neri Cara, a global luxury leather goods brand with over 20 years of partnerships with leading Italian labels, and she holds a PhD from the University of Cambridge Neri. Welcome.

Neri Karra Sillaman  02:09

Thank you, Kris, it’s a pleasure to be here. You had

Kris Safarova  02:12

a tough and very inspiring journey up to this day. Maybe we can start there.

Neri Karra Sillaman  02:19

Sure, I think you are referring to the fact that I was born in Bulgaria and became a refugee, child refugee at the age of 11.

Neri Karra Sillaman  02:29

And I think, you know, it’s funny when I hear the word tough. I don’t really, yes, it was challenging, but I wouldn’t consider it being any more challenging than another person’s life, and I actually feel incredibly and exceptionally fortunate to have the life I have exactly the way it happened. I wouldn’t change anything, because it really brought me here. It made me who I am. So I don’t know, I don’t I don’t know if I can, if I am even myself comfortable with hearing when you know it’s tough. But of course, as anyone’s life, it was. It had its own challenges. I think early on, it was particularly challenging because I grew up in Bulgaria, in communist Bulgaria, and I was born to a Turkish ethnic minority family in the communist government of Bulgaria at the time in the 1980s decided to carry out an ethnic assimilation process against people of my ethnicity, and that meant our names were forcibly changed from Turkish name to Bulgarian names. Not even the dead were spared, because they would go to cemeteries and remove any Turkish names from from the tombstones.

Neri Karra Sillaman  03:54

And you know, we tried to hide, we tried to escape. They will come to our homes, take us forcibly. And our schools were converted into name changing stations, where you are you know you are taken and they have to change your name. It was terrible. And I think as a child, I grew up with this feeling of not feeling enough, or feeling that something is wrong with me, and having this shame, being shamed and feeling shameful of my own background, of my culture, of who I am, and that certainly stays with you, and in terms of Being tough, I would certainly consider that to be a tough one, because now I’m almost 48 years old, and I still have to sometimes catch myself. You know, something will happen where imposter syndrome will come in, and I know where that’s coming. From, I know the origins, and I know how it originated so but at the same time, as I said, I wouldn’t change anything,

Kris Safarova  05:12

because it made you who you are today. If you change even a little piece absolutely that you really treasure in your life right now, will not be

Neri Karra Sillaman  05:19

there exactly. You know, it’s funny, Kris, because when I got married and we wrote our vows to with each other, and I in my vows, I said to my husband, to my husband, I will release everything exactly as it happened. But not just, not just being an immigrant, not just being a refugee, any challenging, any bad thing in my past, I’m happy to relive it, because I know the end leads me to you. And you know, if you change something that you think you wish it didn’t happen to you, I think, would you have, would you be the same person? Would you have the same exact life today. I don’t I doubt that, and I think things happen so that we become more resilient. But I don’t mean resilient in a toxic way. We adapt, we become stronger again on an emotional level. I don’t mean it strong in the sense of, oh, you cannot break me. You cannot touch me. You know, not in this way. So, yes, that’s that’s my opinion on it. And of course, after we became refugees, I was very determined to get a good education. I ended up going to United States on financial financial aid. Started our own family business when I was 22 together with my family, as you mentioned today, we are in our 2050 or 26th almost producing for Prada and mumu, working with Italian labels, producing our own print, which you know, we are very proud of that, and none of that, in my opinion, you know, would happen if you don’t have those challenges and you overcome them so and yes, I think I wrote a book, it’s which is why I’m talking to you today. But I was able to do that again because of the challenges I faced. And then the interest to immigrant entrepreneurship happened because I was one, and when I went to do my PhD at Cambridge. Initially, I went there to study for indirect investment, but then it just didn’t feel like it’s me. It’s not my story. And I went to my supervisor and I said, I’m actually interested to understand international entrepreneurship. As a result of that, I start to look into ethnic entrepreneurship, because we are one, the rest is history. So my PhD was 20 years ago, so it’s the book came out. The book is accumulation of many, many years

Kris Safarova  08:18

during that journey. What do you think were some key defining moments that made you who you are the most

Neri Karra Sillaman  08:26

one thing I would say having a very clear vision. I was 11 years old. It’s a very defining moment in my life, when I stood there and I thought, I need to get a good education, and it became my North Star. And I think it’s very important to it doesn’t mean you are going to know exactly where you are going, but I think I’m talking about what I have lived and what I’ve observed, having clarity, knowing what you want. Mine was at the time I am 11, nobody in my family has gone to university. I looked at all the mayhem around me. We are refugees. We are being set up to stay at a refugee camp, and I think to myself, the way out of this will be only if I get a good education. I must get a good education, and the path to that education didn’t look easy, because, first of all, we are in a refugee camp. Second of all, we have no money. Third, I don’t speak the language of Turkish local Turkish people, because we speak a dialect. So on the outside it looks impossible, but I really and when I went to school, I was bullied. I was bullied because I had very short hair. Again, I didn’t speak the language I was I looked different. I speak different. Kris. And despite all the challenges, even when I failed because I can’t really understand the Turkish language, so I kept failing. Initially, I just remained very, very determined no matter what. And this actually, funnily enough, helps me, because for the book, when I set out to write a book, they said to me, you don’t have a big enough platform. You need 40 100,000 followers to write a book if you want to get a book with a traditional publisher. And my initial proposal was rejected for two years by agents, by publishers, but I persevered, because I really believe in this and that determination when you have when you know what you want, you may have detours, and it may, you know you will get rejections. You are going to be told no. But when you have that North Star, getting an education, writing a book, you have to ignore all the challenges, and know you going to get there no matter what, and all the rejections are in some way protecting you or leading you to your own path. Know that whatever you whenever you are rejected or have a failure, it’s not really a failure. It’s leading you to the path that you are supposed to go. So I think that’s my biggest lesson.

Kris Safarova  11:44

The way I think about it is when you’re pursuing something, and you know this is the right thing, you have to do it, and you get to know after now, what I hear is not yet,

Neri Karra Sillaman  11:54

exactly, absolutely and Kris, when I was interviewing the immigrant entrepreneurs who created these exceptional companies. This was also one thing I heard repeatedly, because we look at moderna, we look at Duolingo, we look at Calendly, we look at WhatsApp, and you see these very successful companies. But what we don’t know is how many times they have been rejected, they didn’t start out as these huge, big, famous companies, and the difference is that they didn’t exactly like you said. It’s not that they hear they don’t register no or rejection the same way that someone else will to them. It’s exactly that, not yet. And no, in fact, I have a quote, no is the beginning of negotiation. This is from Isaac Clarion, who founded MGA Entertainment. No is the beginning of negotiation. So. And another one is whenever someone tells me, no, I know I want something, there’s an opportunity here. So it’s it’s quite interesting in that way,

Kris Safarova  13:09

what do you think were key reasons why you were able to get great education, regardless of how hard it was?

Neri Karra Sillaman  13:19

Perseverance. Because another thing I didn’t have for me, it was the light at the end of the tunnel. So I really, really just focus on that. I focused on the end result, which was to get a good education. And even though I had failures, I just kept going, perseverance.

Kris Safarova  13:44

So what happens once you get your PhD?

Neri Karra Sillaman  13:47

What happened is that I started, I got a offer from London School of Economics to do a research fellowship, and I worked there for one year. It was actually a very interesting role, because I was able to focus on my research. But also this was a fellowship that was funded by the Turkish Government and Bilgi University in Turkey, but it was based at London School of Economics, so monthly I will do these seminars. At the time, Turkey was trying to get into the EU, so I will do these seminars where I invited the Minister of Economy of Turkey, Boris Johnson, and I was able to meet people who were quite interesting, and not necessarily from the world of business, but more from the world of politics, and after that, because our own business was in fashion, I have always been quite interested in the industry I went to do. I started my academic career at London College of Fashion as a lecturer,

Kris Safarova  14:57

and you still teach at which I. Did you realize that you wanted to have that as part of your life?

Neri Karra Sillaman  15:03

I knew I wanted to teach my goodness is early as you being in elementary school. I absolutely love it. I wanted to be, you know, because we were in communism, so we started to learn Russian when I was in second grade, eight years old, and I really admired my Russian teacher, so I wanted to become a Russian teacher that grew up to teach Russian, because that’s the highest I can dream in Bulgaria and Russia at the time during communism, this is like the country you look up to. Of course, communism fell in 1989 the world became a very different place. But yes, I want to become a teacher as early as I was eight years old, because I just loved it. I really admired my teachers and I wanted to do the same thing. But teaching is quite interesting because I really like it. I feel very alive whenever I teach at the same time. I have to also be honest, because I noticed some differences today with laptops and screens in the classroom, which I’m going to sound very old. Now I’m not very keen on because this is my own observation, and the listeners can agree or disagree, but I noticed the students do not have the same attention, and as a teacher, that’s I took a break. So in 2000 in 2020 I took a break just when the pandemic was happening. And I think that’s when everything shifted and changed very quickly. So in the classroom, you have a lot more computers. Everyone is learning online and so on. But the I don’t know when I went back several years later, I don’t see the attention of students being the same participation. And for me, it’s a little bit unusual when I’m talking to someone and they don’t make eye contact, but they are looking at their laptops all the time. I For me, it’s not the same energy anymore. I don’t teach the way, a traditional way at the moment, because I am at University of Oxford, so I advise students who create startups out of University of Oxford. I advise them with their strategy, with how their businesses is set up, basically. So that’s my role. It’s not considered, I wouldn’t say I wouldn’t consider it teaching at the moment, but more of an advisory role.

Kris Safarova  18:02

Did you notice, along with what you mentioned, that when you actually speak to a person, one on one, that the attention that used to be there no longer there when you work with students,

Neri Karra Sillaman  18:14

I think it’s more at a collective level, especially at a classroom level, that’s at least what I’ve experienced having laptops open, having and it’s very funny, this was last year, 2024 November, 2024 when I was back at teaching here in Paris at the end of My at the end of my class, I asked them to create these companies, that it’s their own creation, their own idea, and then they have to present. And I said, you know, at the end, I said, Can you get please? Everyone get a pen and a piece of paper. They look at me, they look at each other. They look very surprised. I’m like, why? What’s going why are they not taking a piece of paper and a pen, like everyone is, like, looking at each other, talking. And I said, what’s going on? What’s wrong? And they said, did you bring us? Do you have pen and paper? They don’t have nobody had a pen, nobody had a paper in their bag. That’s when I knew I am old. Officially.

Kris Safarova  19:29

I don’t think it makes you old at all, and people do miss out a lot on not writing by hand. I wrote multiple books by

Neri Karra Sillaman  19:38

Yes, Oh, for sure, of course, same here. It’s a I think Kris. It’s a different generation, because when you are in the classroom, and they when you ask for pen and paper, and they look at you like, what? And it’s, I. I’m joking, of course, but when I say I realized I am part of different generation, there is also some truth to this. They don’t use it anymore. It’s in I think, with the AI becoming much more relevant, it’s going to get even even more so

Kris Safarova  20:20

what are your thoughts on how AI will change everything, even in 345, years?

Neri Karra Sillaman  20:26

I think it’s already there, and it will depend. We can’t stop it. This is just like, you know, it reminds me when, in 1995 96 is when I went to university, and I talk about it in my book. It’s the first time I saw computer in my life, and I have to work on a computer. And you know, that’s kind of the birth of internet at the time. Just like we were not able to stop the development of worldwide web, internet, we cannot stop the development of AI. It’s here. It’s already here. It’s already companies and countries and companies have invested billions and billions into this. What will make the difference is our own humanity, our own creativity, and I am actually quite actively, you know, we just talked about pen and paper. I still use pen and paper very much. So right, right now in front of me, there’s pen and paper. The more creative you are, the more you show your own humanity, your own creativity, the more you will stand out. I think we all we will miss the human touch even more, and at least that’s my hope. I don’t think computers will take over completely, and it will be our humanity that makes the difference in the end, and maybe

Kris Safarova  21:59

people will actually even appreciate imperfections, because then we know it is coming from a human

Neri Karra Sillaman  22:07

absolutely, you know, the other day, I did a LinkedIn post, and I noticed I there is a typo in my LinkedIn post, and I left it purposefully. I didn’t edit it. I said, you know, every like, even sometimes I’ve used AI for my post, but I thought I’m just going to leave it as it is, because I want people to know I wrote this and it’s there with its own imperfections.

Kris Safarova  22:35

Yes, you mentioned you wrote a book. Yes, what are the key things you want people to take away from it.

Neri Karra Sillaman  22:41

I started writing pioneers because I asked a question that nobody really was asking about immigration. Unfortunately, today we live in a world where immigrants are shown to be the bad guys, the bad people. Immigration, there is a very negative and hateful rhetoric around immigration, but if we look at statistics, they tell us a very different story. Immigrants make up nearly 50% of Fortune 500 companies. If we look at the number of immigrants in us, all over the world, they are, they don’t they are actually not that big in terms of percentage, but they are majority of the businesses of entrepreneurship. They are started by immigrants. So when I look at these statistics, I ask myself the question, Why are immigrants so disproportionately successful compared to non immigrants, and immigrant founded businesses last longer than their counterparts? So what? Why is that? That’s basically the question that my book is answering. And I went and interviewed about 30 immigrant entrepreneurs who have started some of the most exceptional companies from I mentioned some of them, Chobani, Duolingo, WhatsApp, calendar, Dermalogica, Dominican, cell, Zumba, A to Z they are all founded by immigrants. And I identified eight principles, building bridges across institutions, across countries, focusing on community, focusing on shared value, instead of focusing only on profit, focusing on purpose, and these are some very unorthodox ways to do business, but when you and that was the interesting part for me, because I teach entrepreneurship, I am an immigrant entrepreneur. Myself, but when I look at how they’ve created their businesses, it goes against, almost like it runs counter to what we are being taught in business school. It’s they were not. They didn’t set out to make profit. Only they set out, yes, of course they have to put bread on the table sometimes, you know, there’s, it’s called necessity entrepreneurship. You start a business because you have no other choice. But they are not there to take money from you. They are there because they first value the person across from them. They want to bring value to the community. They become part of. This is a very good example of Chobani Hamdi, the founder of the Greek keyword company in us. He took over an abandoned craft factory in the very first thing he did and noticed was the people in that New York Hamlet, how they were desperate and incredibly unhappy because the craft factory that has been feeding their families is now gone, and first thing he did was, how can I Make use of the community, first of all, and get them to become part of Chobani, of creating my business, but also giving back to them. And that’s why I talk about shared value when they create businesses. And this is like when I say, don’t focus on profit, immediately, people think, Oh, but I have a business. I have to make money, of course, and you will make money, but you are much more likely to make money if you focus on what you can give instead of what you can take. And this is for me, number one rule, if there is one thing to take away from my book is that, and I explain how they were able to do that, because that’s the secret. You know, everyone today talks about, yes, I want to create a business based on my values. I have a purpose, and it’s very nice to say shared values, community. But I go a step further in my book, and I explain how you can do that.

Kris Safarova  27:25

You also speak about history and heritage as assets. Can you elaborate on that?

Neri Karra Sillaman  27:32

So because history and heritage is assets, I understand what you are asking me now, because they do not discard their past. They don’t see their past as something to be discarded, to be ashamed of, just like I started in the beginning of my talk. But instead, there is a wealth of information there, and instead of looking at their past in a way that has nothing to do with them. They take the wealth of information from that, for example, Dominica himself, they were able to create the companies they did because it’s very much part of their past. It’s in they take that past and they think about the future they want to create, and they do it in the present. And that’s actually my chapter two, which is about creating a vision for your for yourself and for your company. And I go into a lot of detail how you can do that, but the secret is, you use your heritage. You use your past as as wealth, and it’s not something to be ashamed of or to be discarded or to be forgotten, but instead to be embraced.

Kris Safarova  28:56

Building on what you already said about the book, for someone who is not an immigrant and now, listening to us right now, what are the key things you want them to adapt that you think will be most beneficial, especially if they are running their own business,

Neri Karra Sillaman  29:10

all the principles Kris, because that’s a brilliant question. In fact, today, someone on LinkedIn posted about my book, saying I read 350 books in in the last five years, and these are the 10 books that I’m still talking about and thinking about. One of them was mine, and she’s herself, non immigrant, and she said it surprised me how much I connected to this book, because I’m not an immigrant. However, the similarities that I was given many responsibilities early on, and I also had to move different cities, different jobs, and that’s I love that review. I love that reflection. Because when I was writing pioneers. I was obviously not writing it for immigrants. I use immigrants as an example, but my book is about non immigrants, about anyone who wants to create a better business and better life, because the principles here can be used for living a full life, living the best life you can live, and you don’t have to be an immigrant to be able to apply these principles, whether it’s how to maximize luck, how to create your own luck, what kindness means? Because at the end of my book, I My conclusion is that the glue that holds it all together is kindness, and kindness doesn’t mean to be nice, but to have the courage to speak up for yourself, for others, to have the courage to treat your customers, your suppliers, with dignity. So kindness has incredible strength in it. So I think you don’t have to be an immigrant to read my book and to apply the principles.

Kris Safarova  31:09

You also have a principle about daring to play your hand, and you talk about how longevity requires decisive action at critical moments. Can you speak more about that?

Neri Karra Sillaman  31:18

Yes, it’s about luck, because you have to luck is something. It’s a very interesting concept Kris, because when I was interviewing the entrepreneurs, it really stood out to me how every single one of them consistently talked about luck. I was lucky. I moved to New York. I was lucky. I met my partner. I was lucky. I saw this opening, and I took a chance on it. So I thought, and again, I didn’t know when I’m I start my interviews, what my research is going to lead me to. I’m very open. And then I thought, there’s something here. I need to look more into it, and what I uncovered was very interesting, because luck to immigrant entrepreneurs, luck is not something that happens outside. It’s not a happy event. It’s not the serendipity that just comes in like a butterfly and, you know, goes on you. It’s you being prepared enough to recognize when that luck happens, and daring to play your hand, daring to take that chance, daring to take that action. So you have to, it’s capability. You have to develop these capabilities within yourself and have courage to take chance on something. So that was my last principle in the book.

Kris Safarova  32:51

Which principle was developed in the most meaningful way for you?

Neri Karra Sillaman  32:57

Very good question. So this is the interesting because I was writing the book when I was in us, writing the very final chapters. And it was in November, the election was just happening in the US. There was a lot of energy in the air. I was in my hotel room writing the very final chapters and thinking, looking at all the principles, and I suddenly have this epiphany, so much so that I stood out at my desk and said, Oh, my God, this is it. How did I not see this? Because there’s something interesting, because when we think of these immigrant entrepreneurs, they are big people, they are very well known. They’ve created, they’ve become billionaires. They’ve created exceptional businesses. They change the world with these businesses. But there’s something incredibly interesting. They do not put themselves at the center. They are not this big ego. They are not this big sun that shines to the world, not at all instead, of course, they run the business. They created it. But the attention, they do not put the attention on themselves. The attention is on their business, on the value they create for others, on their suppliers, on their customers, on people they come in touch with, on people they have contact with. And how, what can I give How can I bring value? How am I living my values? But it’s not this egocentric leadership that we think about when we think about entrepreneurship, and unfortunately today, I’m not. But I’m going to be very open. We live in a world where we have been seeing the kind of leadership that wins is the one where the leader shines like the sun and thinks they are it, and everyone around them is looking at him or her thinking, wow, look at this person, and they bask in their greatness. Unfortunately, that’s what we are seeing today in the world, is as an example of leadership. But also it’s not going to it cannot last, at least, that’s not what I’ve seen in my research. This type of leadership has its own challenges, and it’s not I talk about legacy. I talk about longevity, and is it the kind of legacy you want to leave behind? So that’s the question, and in fact, that’s what I end my book by asking that question, what is the legacy you want to leave behind? Because that’s the conclusion,

Kris Safarova  36:12

and what longevity actually means. It is that yes, it’s not how long your business was in business, hurting customers and being able to find new customers who weren’t yet hurt by you exactly. And the last one I wanted to ask about today, the last principle is building community. You talk about how community is a core operating system, not a marketing initiative. What our listeners need to understand about building communities? What can they learn from immigrant entrepreneurs,

Neri Karra Sillaman  36:42

absolutely so immigrant entrepreneurs, they come from collective most of them come from collective cultures. They come from big families and with the very where they have strong networks. And when they immigrate, they obviously the very act of immigration. They lose many of the connections. And when they are in this new country, what I have noticed, and also what I live myself, they value each connection they make, and they don’t necessarily that connection doesn’t necessarily have to be with someone from their own background or from their own culture. It can be from anyone who is in the new country, from that new country and culture, but they put a lot of emphasis and a lot of effort, and it’s done in a very strategic way, by the way, this is not some random, randomly I go and or, and it’s not done in a very in an inauthentic way, where they want to use you, or they want to simply meet someone in order to benefit themselves. But it’s done in a way that is they use strategic storytelling. They talk about who they are. They want to find commonality between themselves and the other person. And when they create their community, whether that’s with their suppliers or customers, there is dignity, there is value in the connection that they make, and it’s not done in a way that will exploit the other person, but will benefit both of them. So that’s the difference. And you know today, even when I started to do my research, community immediately are like online community. So and So company built an online community, and especially today, we just talked about AI, everything is online. A lot of emphasis goes there. But again, you asked a very good question about the future of AI, the difference is going to be the very real connections you make with the people in your immediate environment, in your family, in your in your workplaces, in your company, and how those connections that type of community will become our biggest asset.

Kris Safarova  39:25

I want to wrap up our discussion today with my favorite question to ask, let’s say, over your entire life so far, what were two, three aha moments, realizations that we haven’t yet discussed today that really changed the way you look at life or the way you look at the business?

Neri Karra Sillaman  39:41

That’s a hard one. I don’t know if it is. We haven’t discussed it all. You know, I will tell I will wrap it up in this way, how I talked about having a clear vision. I think it all clicked for me when, let’s say, you have a certain vision. You want something to happen, I realized, and this may sound corny or not, but this is you ask for my own Aha. So here it is, anything that I thought and I wanted outside of me is already within me, whether that’s love, success, recognition. I just have to give it to myself. And anything that I think is outside of me is already within me. I hope that can explain it. I don’t need to chase anything on the external it’s all within me already that has been my aha,

Kris Safarova  40:45

I was going to add to it. And once it is within you, is when you start seeing it outside. Exactly, exactly. Neri, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate the time we spent together. Where can our listeners learn more about you by your book? Anything you want to share.

Neri Karra Sillaman  41:01

My book, pioneers, eight principles of business longevity, from immigrant entrepreneurs. It’s sold anywhere books are sold. They can get in touch with me on LinkedIn, at Neri Cara Silliman and my website. Neri speaks.com

Kris Safarova  41:18

our guest today was Dr Neri. Cara Silliman, an author of pioneers, and our podcast sponsor today is strategy training.com you can get some gifts from us. Five reasons why people ignore somebody in a meeting at firms, consulting.com. Forward slash on the room. You can get access to Episode One of how to build a consulting practice at firms consulting.com forward slash build. You can get the overall approach used in well managed strategy studies at firms consulting.com forward slash overall approach. And you can get McKinsey and BCG winning resume example template you can use take a look at it is a PDF, and you can download it at firms consulting.com forward slash, raising my PDF, and that is actually raising my dad offers from both of those firms and works at any seniority level. Thank you so much for tuning in, and I’m looking forward to connect with you all next time.