Kris Safarova  00:45

Welcome to the Strategy Skills podcast. I’m your host, Kris Safarova. And our podcast sponsor today is StrategyTraining.com. If you want to strengthen your strategy skills, you can get the Overall Approach Used in Well-Managed Strategy Studies. It’s a free download, and you can get it at firmsconsulting.com/overallapproach. You can also get McKinsey and BCG-winning resume, which is a free download as well. And you can get it at firmsconsulting.com/resumePDF. And today we have with us James Turk, who is the CEO of The Turk Group and author of The Giving Game, and his clients include Spotify, Squarespace, and Goldman Sachs. James, welcome.

James Turk  01:27

Thank you, Kris. It’s good to be here.

Kris Safarova  01:30

So you started as an actor and then completely changed your direction in your career. Maybe we can start there. Can you give us a little bit of a novelty of your journey up to this point?

James Turk  01:41

Absolutely. So, I was born and raised in Mississippi, and very quickly got out of there and went to school in New Orleans and Chicago, then I landed in New York in my mid 20s, and I ended up working in various roles in human resources. And it was never really the right fit. I worked on Wall Street, worked in trade publishing, and then kind of while I was doing that, I decided I wanted to go back to my true passion, which was something more creative, being on the stage. So I worked in human resources during the day, and I studied at night. And then I actually left my corporate job and started pursuing my acting career full time. And you see how well that turned out. But while I was pursuing the acting full time, I was doing some HR consulting around the edges, and while I was doing that, I got exposed to the category of learning and development, professional enhancement, leadership, and did both of those for a couple of years, but then decided that probably my skills were best utilized in the professional development space, and that was about 25 years ago, and I have not looked back since.

Kris Safarova  02:47

When you have such a diverse experiences, it really changes the way you look at life. I myself started as a concert pianist, and then management consultant, bank management consultant, entrepreneur, and it’s very interesting when you see so many different things. And then on top of it, I’ve lived in many countries and worked in many countries. It really gives you a different perspective. What do you feel it gives you, in terms of how you see the world differently, and how you’re able to help clients in a different way from other people?

James Turk  03:17

No, I love the question. So I think that just when we talk, there’s a lot of like diversity, equity, inclusivity. The real hook there is the value of bringing different perspectives to the world, to the work, to our employees. And there’s such value if our goal is disruption, innovation, just to see things from kind of multiple views. For me, the whole kind of pursuing the acting was allowed me to kind of bring to the work just a different perspective as far as authenticity, this idea of being kind of true to self, like all the things that make one successful kind of in that creative space, like bringing that to a more traditional corporate environment, just served me well, Not only as I looked to connect with other people, clients, my employees, but certainly as I kind of coached CEOs and helped them connect with their employees, with their shareholders in a way that was authentic, but also kind of brought some energy and things that people could really connect to. And in our work at the Turk group, we are very research focused, and will often kind of pull from data sources that very much go after this idea of kind of looking at things from multiple perspectives. And there was a famous case study out at the University of Washington when they were trying to really work on the HIV virus and trying to understand some of the kind of specifics of the DNA strand there, and they ended up going to the gaming department in computer sciences and said, You know what, we’re struggling. Why don’t you approach this like it’s a game and you’re trying to solve it? And they brought a different mindset to it, and they were able to actually kind of crack the genetic code in like six days, which the researchers. Had been working on like six months. So I always reflect back on that sort of thinking as a way to just kind of broaden our effectiveness as leaders.

Kris Safarova  05:09

James and in your career, at some point, do you remember a moment when you realized, now I’m doing the work that I actually want to do for the rest of my life? This really matters?

James Turk  05:21

Well, there’s been a couple. So I’ve been, I’ve been really lucky that I’ve worked for some really amazing people. So there are kind of two, two people that stand out so early, you know, in my 20s, before I got to New York, I was working in galleries, and I worked for this couple that owned a gallery, and they just gave me lots of opportunity. And just, you know, in that, you know, I was the first time I kind of saw myself differently. It’s like, okay, these people see something in my, in me, that I don’t see in myself. And then later, when I was working in human resources and in trade publishing, I had another boss that kind of saw something in me and gave me opportunities that let me blossom. It wasn’t until probably 10 years after that, about 15 years ago, that I, you know, just sort of it all, all my life experiences, all of my training, you know, all of the opportunity, kind of all came together. And it was being in front of a group of people, and, you know, engaging, engaging them around, kind of what’s going to help them be effective leaders. And I was comfortable in my experience, my knowledge of the material, and I was really connecting with the audience. And I was like, Okay, this is what I was meant to do. It was great. It’s very gratifying.

Kris Safarova  06:27

What do people misread about you, your success when they look from the outside there?

James Turk  06:34

You know? It’s funny because, you know, just, I’m sure the other CEOs and consultants out there like, you know, you know, I for me, I’m never satisfied, and I will kind of rarely give myself kind of kudos for actually accomplishing things. But writing the book was a big one, so I have to give myself credit for that. But when I see it through other people, they’ll see like, oh, look, you have kind of built this business. You went from working for other consulting firms, and you went out on your own, and not only were you, you know, you consulted individually for a while, but then you kind of started your own consulting company, and now you’ve kind of raised it, and you have 15 freelancers that report into you, and you have, you know, a thriving practice, and you know, you know, seeing it through other people’s eyes, and then when people seek my experience, my guidance, my counsel, yeah, that’s always pretty, pretty impressive, because I’m still like that kid from Mississippi is like, Oh, they really, they really want to know what I have to say, but they do, and I have a lot to say. So, so it’s good.

Kris Safarova  07:30

Was there a failure that you learned the most from? And what did you learn? If you feel comfortable sharing.

James Turk  07:37

Sure, sure, sure. For me, like this, my trajectory has been, you know, I, you know, just as far as my skill set, I think one of the most important skills for people to have, especially entrepreneurs or CEOs, yeah, for me, it was just scrappiness, just being able to kind of figure things out, and just having the tenacity and the drive to kind of not give up so early, when I shifted from Being a, you know, executive coach, a master facilitator. Working for other consulting companies, I shifted and decided I wanted to run my own practice. I underestimated the different capabilities and skills required to actually be a CEO versus being a good technician. I was a really good technician, but I really didn’t understand what was required in running a business, and the whole kind of business planning and the thinking strategically and kind of managing the cash flow, and so that was a big lesson for me. I underestimated how difficult that was going to be, so it took me much longer to kind of really get my rhythm with those things. I thought it would be pretty instantaneous, but it really took me about three years and and I was close a couple of times to not at all falling apart, but it it landing with me going back to working for another consulting company. Because, you know, any small business owner out there can tell you it’s hard and often it doesn’t work. So the biggest kind of lesson for me was just underestimating what was going to be required there, and I would have just done things differently.

Kris Safarova  09:04

Do you remember how you found secured, signed the deal with the first few clients once you went on your own?

James Turk  09:12

I do so in Malcolm Gladwell, tipping point, he talks about, like, all the things that we do and like, the small things that really matter, my tipping point was I had, you know, was making the decision to leave a partnership with a very prestigious learning and development consulting company out of Boston that partnered with Harvard. And I had a contact from a few years prior that we had stayed in touch, and he had just started with BuzzFeed. And this is like 2013 I believe. And I was like, Oh, do I call this guy? Do I not call this guy? That’s how he doesn’t want to hear from me. I was like, You know what? Why not? And so I reached out to him and said, Hey, listen, do I remember you saying a few years ago that you all were looking to maybe do some development for your leaders? They were about 85 people at the time, and he’s like, your timing’s per. Fixed. And as well, you know, we could go back to one of these other consulting companies that I have partnerships with, or, if you’re comfortable, we can work, you know, together, and we can do this like we can, we can partner for the first time. You say, James, I’m very comfortable with you. I’d love to partner with you. And so that was, that was the turning point. And then, you know, got it there, and we designed some custom content for their leaders. And then the 85 became 500 and then they became 3000 and as BuzzFeed grew and became like an international brand, so did I. And so I was able to kind of ride that and all of those original leaders, ultimately, most of them peeled off and went to Vox, went to Conde Nast, and as they went off, they brought me with them. So, you know, by focusing in on making sure I did good work, and I was very kind of client centric, that served me well. And that was really the trajectory of of my entire business and Kris, I almost did not make that call. And I always think about that like, and just like, the power of just like, oh, let me just do it. And then, you know, really the rest is history.

Kris Safarova  11:01

Sometimes it’s very dangerous to overthink something. Just pick up the phone.

James Turk  11:06

Exactly. And we’re, especially as CEOs, we have to be kind of bold and decisive, and you’ve got to just make those decisions and essentially take the risk. Because the risk was that he would say no, and it wouldn’t work out, but then the potential upside was, you know, was, was way greater. So, yeah, glad I made the call.

Kris Safarova  11:28

So you started that engagement. Do you remember what you did that allowed you to over deliver for this client?

James Turk  11:36

No, it’s great. No, I love that. Yeah. So, so, so I, you know, I’m a bit of a perfectionist, and I’ve got, you know, a healthy fear of people just think, like, Who’s this guy? What? So, so I kind of grew up when I was facilitating and coaching through other consulting companies. I would, you know, I started very young, and I would always over prepare. So I would spend, like, sleepless nights, just going through my notes and referencing the research and that would, I would go old school, and I would transcribe things, because I wanted to really, really understand things, ultimately, because I wanted to just make sure I was being of service to the consulting company, to the client and to my audience, right? So I wanted to make sure that they were getting what we promised for them. So once I started working initially with BuzzFeed, like, early on, I just, like, really asked a lot of questions, like, what are, what are the specific issues that was early days of kind of digital publishing, and you know, you know, like, top 10 list, they were really on the forefront of that. So just really understanding their business. It was an interesting combination of kind of tech. It was, you know, it was technical. It was creative with, like, directors and videographers, and really understanding their business, and then making sure that I kind of built a program that was going to be kind of fit for purpose for them, because it was, it was a creative environment. So it needed to have a certain amount of like energy, and, you know, to use the term fun, as well as having substance, as far as learning objectives. So I just thought through all of those things, tested them with my contact, and really made sure that I was going down the right path. And then by the time I actually was in front of the group of leaders, it was pretty much good to go. And then it just all fell on, kind of my delivery of those things, so just over prepared and anticipated pushback and yeah, and that, and that’s that served that served me well. Then it’s really served me well through my entire career. It certainly serves me well as a, you know, that’s the CEO of my own business. Because, you know, it just didn’t do it. Just things matter. You just need to really come, you know, anticipate, plan, re you know, check documents and all those things.

Kris Safarova  13:53

Definitely. What was the hardest part about delivering quality work for Buzzfeed?

James Turk  14:00

Probably my own, like, fear, you know, just they just do just just just worrying that it was not going to go well, and second guessing myself. And, you know, even though I had, kind of had all my certifications, and I, you know, I know my stuff, and I knew my stuff, then just just the imposter syndrome, like this is like they’re gonna, who is this guy? Why are we listening to him? Like all those things, and we talk a lot about emotional intelligence in kind of my business, and just how important that is. And just, you know, for me, having the self awareness of understanding that that’s what was happening inside me. But then having, you know, I had a coach at the time who was very helpful, and he kind of worked with me around the self regulation of that, like, understand that those thoughts were happening inside me and helped me develop strategies to not let them overtake me and or kind of, you know, impact the work that I was trying to do.

Kris Safarova  14:50

Once you started with this client, have you also searched for other clients? Or initially you just focused on this one client?

James Turk  14:59

I did, but. Just I focused on them initially, and then I started doing, you know, I’ve been in New York most of my professional life, and so I know a lot of people. So once I started doing that, I put some feelers out and just, hey, this is what I’m up to. So it was, it was very kind of relationship based marketing, kind of word of mouth. But BuzzFeed was on a kind of a very fast trajectory. So they were moving very quickly. People started kind of, kind of, you know, moving to other organizations. I also lucked out and, you know, the CHRO, the head of human resources at BuzzFeed, was part of a community of HR professionals in the New York metro area. There were two groups. There were kind of Chief People officers, Chief Human Resources officers, and then there were also just generalists. So two audiences, somehow I got referred into those groups. So when someone Hey, who all are you using? So FanDuel reached out and said, Hey, we’re looking for a partner to help us with our leadership development. Does anyone have any good ideas, and then the person from BuzzFeed, we’re working with, this guy, James, at the Turk group. We’re loving what he’s doing. We’re having great success. And so FanDuel called me, and then I was able to sign FanDuel and just, you know, my entire business has really been all referral. So I’ve done like, you know, some marketing, some videos and things that nature. But for the most part, it’s all been referral. People that I’ve worked with before, who’ve come just referred me to others.

Kris Safarova  16:26

For consultants listening to us right now, who are thinking about going on their own. What would be your advice on when is the right time to go on their own?

James Turk  16:36

I mean, so just really think through it. So it’s one thing, because I think you mentioned you were at PwC, so it’s one thing to kind of work for one of the big four or the top 10 consulting firms and act as a consultant with clients. It’s, as I said earlier, it’s very different to run your own shop. Not everyone is cut out for it. People reach out to me all the time like, oh, James, you run your own company and you wrote a book, and that looks great to me. I think I want to do it also. I’m like, All right, that’s wonderful. And I just, I just questioned, like, do you do you have the stomach for it? Because, you know, it’s, it can be very stressful. So you know, if the phone’s not ringing or that people aren’t getting back to you with proposal, and you’ve got a mortgage, you’ve got kids in school. So the first word of caution to them is just, are you, are you really ready for, you know, what’s you know, what this is going to be like. So lots of ups and downs, lots of like, wins, but it, but it takes a while for kind of things to kind of pan out, and make sure that you got the right prudent reserve. So I usually suggest to people that they have, like, two years where they can just essentially be prepared to make no money from the business. And then, you know, in that time, you know, they will get a good sense whether it’s going to work or not. Hopefully it will, and then they can take it from there. So, you know, you know, know what you’re walking into, be patient. And then as you are kind of establishing your business and your kind of value proposition, look for ways to get better at it, right? So, so, you know, Dan Pink talks about in the book drive this idea of kind of mastery, purpose, autonomy. So just kind of keep, let yourself be really good at owning your own consulting company, which is different. So you need to learn how to build proposals and to kind of price things to where your margins are actually going to help you make money, and you need to be able to kind of pitch it in a way that’s going to help so that all of those things take time. And then, as you’re doing and building your business, look for the book that I wrote is called the giving game. And the general idea is like in life and in business, look for opportunities to think about, what can I bring to this situation versus what am I looking to get? And as a business owner, you know you might think like I’m looking to get this business, and sure I am, but I’m really trying to also help this potential client also. So in this business development conversation, as I’m putting together the proposal. I may not get it, but I want them to be well served by just even engaging me in the conversation. So what can I do for them as we explore what a solution might be that’s going to be kind of net positive for both of us, where they’re going to see some additional insights in the way that I framed some questions and made my recommendation is going to help them understand what they’re trying to do better. And then for me, I’m going to be just a better, stronger consultant, because I was able to engage with this client in their specific nuances, and it’s going to help me also, yes, I want to get the business, but even if I don’t, I want it to be kind of net positive for both parties. One more thing look for, especially as you are just setting out, look for, don’t be afraid to give things away for free, right? So if you know someone at like a BCG or someone in a very kind of prestigious organization, you’ll offer to run a workshop as a pilot. And in comp, it might seem counterintuitive, but if you can get a case study from a top organization where you’ve gone in and actually delivered something and it’s gone well, that’s going to be worth just the bank.

Kris Safarova  20:13

Definitely. And for someone watching us right now or listening to us right now, and they heard you say, have you got stomach, right? How would they find out if they are cut out for it or not?

James Turk  20:23

So to sleep maybe. So you’ll know early on. So you just have to, kind of, like, you know, be very honest with yourself to say, you know, you know, do I have, am I gonna be able to handle the level of stress that that is associated with being a small business owner and and the stress is, you know, you’re constantly, you’re kind of constantly working. So, you know, seven days a week here, if you’re not like at your computer, you’re probably thinking about things. And you know, you’re having to, depending on how you’re structured, you may need to be floating payroll, and you need to go to the bank and get the right. There’s just a lot involved and, and not everyone wants to do that, right? And there’s nothing wrong with kind of working for other people and still being highly effective. So, so, yeah, so you know, know yourself, and kind of know, like, you know, have you ever done it, you know, and if you have, how did you feel about it? And you know, how do you think that you’re going to handle it and maybe even give yourself a certain amount of time? Like, you know what? I’m going to try this for six months. Six months. I’m going to pay attention to, you know, is this joyful? Am I? Is this, you know, interesting to me, and how’s my health? Am I? Am I able to, you know, find my rhythm within this, or is it just just too stressful for me? Would be my suggestion.

Kris Safarova  21:38

So you’re very good at getting referrals, at networking, and having a reputation with people where they feel comfortable referring you for someone who was held down for 10, 20 years working or delivering, never really prioritizing networking. And now they’re listening to us. They’re thinking about going on their own, and they’re thinking, Okay, I need to start networking. What will be your advice on how to start building out your network, especially later on in life, when you’re around 40, 45.

James Turk  22:08

Yeah no, it’s a good question. So I think that there is the there’s a Keith Fauci who wrote, Never Eat Alone. You know, I think a lot of those principles still stand true today. So I would approach it, probably, with like, a three tiered approach. So one, I would go old school, I would go to conferences. I would go to kind of look for like, user groups, depending upon like, what industry you’re in, like, there’s typically a lot of things that happen in whatever market you’re in, show up. So show up. Really flesh out your value proposition. Hi. My name is James Turk. I run a boutique learning and development consulting company. We work with clients globally. It’s nice to meet you. I’d love to hear more about you, right? So really get your your elevator pitch down, and just get yourself out there. And even if it’s you know, and again, back to being you know, a owner of a consultancy, you need to be comfortable wearing all the different hats. And sometimes the hat is business development, Chief, marketing person. You have to get out there and shake hands and meet people, even if it’s not something that you enjoy or particularly consider yourself to be good at, you will get better at it. So I think that’s one the others would be kind of just the social media, LinkedIn. So joining user groups, joining following, kind of thought leaders in your space, and just very, be very active in that following. So comment on things, pay attention to other people who are commenting, who’s following them. That’s a very rich area to understand, like who else is in this space. If you do that on LinkedIn, you might actually kind of like, run into some people who are buying, you know, in that same space, other clients of these people. So just go, just go old school, and really kind of think about, kind of like, you know, look for like, who these people are. What are their What are they doing? Try to participate. You know. The the good news with with social and with LinkedIn, is that you can actually, you can contribute, and you can comment, and you can be very kind of thoughtful and smart, and hopefully people will pay attention. Takes a while, but you can absolutely, kind of build a little bit of a community within those spaces. And then the third is just old school. So I do when I work with, when I’m coaching people, I just tell them, Okay, write down a list of all the people that you know. Who have you worked with? Yeah, you know, just, don’t, just put everyone down. Don’t, don’t ask yourself, are they relevant? Or they’re not just at each company. Who are the people that you know? What is it they do? What are they doing? Now, you know, if you kind of reached out and said hello to them, what might that look like? What are you looking to are you looking to just broaden your network? Are you looking to say hello? Are you looking for a lead or referral? So really kind of go and kind of make a master list of all of your people. We need to be very careful as we are networking for it not to feel transactional or you. Know, where I’m just reaching out because I need something. I’m a big believer like you. Build your network. Keep your network healthy and let it just be Hey, I saw this article. I thought it would be interesting, or I heard that so and so that we used to work with got this promotion. Isn’t that funny? So keep your network strong. So when you are ready to share something or ask for something, it doesn’t feel like, Oh, I’m only reaching out because I need something. None of us like that, right? So don’t do that to yourself, and don’t do that to other people.

Kris Safarova  25:33

James, and in terms of maintaining connection. So you mentioned two ways that can be done. How often should that be done?

James Turk  25:40

So it depends. So it depends like, so if you’re so depending upon like, if there are these, are they just kind of peer connections? Are they clients? So it depends a little bit around, kind of who they are. So if they are within my accounts, what I do, like, a lot of our accounts are strategic accounts, so they’re active. So I’ll see them anyways, ones that are not currently active, usually, like once a quarter, I’ll look for some organic way to kind of reach out to them again, either to link or, yeah, I was thinking of you, or did you see this article, article in the in the journal, just to keep the the relationship alive. I also think the other kind of benefit of, you know, good social strategy, and a good LinkedIn strategy is it kind of keeps your name kind of on the forefront of people. So if you’re posting articles or kind of responding to other people, that kind of keeps your presence alive and well, kind of in the in the digital world, which allows people that you may not be contacting once a quarter, but it allows them to still be familiar with what you’re working on. So, you know, indirect, but that kind of that works for you also, but, but you know, for most of our relationships and prospects, I’d see probably once a quarter, if it’s just, you know, within my peers, maybe it’s twice a year.

Kris Safarova  27:01

Makes a lot of sense. Do you feel that your definition of success changed when you were 20, then 30 and so on?

James Turk  27:09

Absolutely. So for me, it used to be, like, very ego driven, like I wanted the title, I wanted the stature, I wanted the kind of recognition. But as I have just matured and gotten older. As you can see from my gray hair, it’s, it’s just changed. And I also think that, like, I’ve really been, I’ve worked my my tail off, but I’ve also, I’ve reached a certain level of success, which allows me to just relax within, within it all, you know. So now it’s around, you know, just, you know, it’s just adding value. So at the end of the day, like I like the the monetary success and like all of the the stuff, but really, what I like is just having impact. I want to have impact. I want to create a nice environment for the people that work for me, that they can make a good living and they can, you know, do do good, good quality work for me, I like working with the clients and helping them figure out what they want. I like to model what, especially when I’m working with CEOs, I like to model what I think good looks like, so that they understand that, and they can kind of bring that to their teams and their organizations. That’s the stuff that really matters to me now, versus just, you know, the bank account, which I like the bank account, but it’s about all the other things, like really having a sense of purpose and really delivering on that purpose.

Kris Safarova  28:26

Of course. So you wrote the book The Giving Game. Out of all the topics you could have been writing about, why this topic, take us to that moment, defining moment, that you decided this is the book I need to write?

James Turk  28:39

Sure, sure. So, I get, for many years of, you know, just, I have a, you know, I’ve, you know, left hand, right hand brain. I kind of, I straddle the logical and the creative, you know. So for many years I’m like, you know, I used to work in human resources, so I’ve had a couple of books percolating within me, within the Turk group, and in my space, within kind of executive coaching and, you know, being a master facilitator, you know, there’s, there’s, there’s a certain point, you know, like, how far do I want all this to go? Right? And and in I could have stopped just kind of growing and stayed within the box I had created a few years ago. But it’s like, you know, that I think I can take this further. And what would that look like? And people who have taken it further, you know, Brene Brown, Simon, Sinek, Adam Grant, what have they done? It’s like, oh, well, they’ve all published. All right. So, you know, let me think about this. So I thought like, All right, so maybe, maybe I’ll do a book. And if I do a book, what is the book? And then I looked at the business, and of all the clients that we have, what are, what are the what are the topics that seem to kind of sell the most? What are the programs and the coaching topics that are most requested and and you know, at least half the time it was around, you know people management. In people management, you know people who have been in the role for a long time and never had training, or people. People thinking about like, maybe, do I want to leave my individual contributor role and kind of give my kind of stature and my expertise and actually going into people leadership, I’m not sure, and people who were just recently promoted? Am I right? So that’s probably half of my business. Let me be smart about this. So I’m going to publish this book. Let me go within, kind of our area of expertise, and really think about, like the biggest audience, just based on the request we get from the market. And then decided to write the giving game. And really the idea was to follow, you know, a new manager as they go through their first year of being a people manager. And all of the things to do. We talk about this idea of the first 45 days and all the things they need to do when they hit the ground running. And the idea was to really help people leaders out there, people managers who may not have the budget to bring us in to do training programs or to coach, but really need help. So the book is really meant to be a chance for someone to buy it, or buy it for recently, a promoted manager, and just whip through it. Like, okay, this doesn’t give me everything, but this gives me a lot, as far as, like, what are the things I need to do in the first year? So it’s really a chance to kind of give back to that audience in a very deliberate way. And then, on my end, writing the book is really just, it’s, ultimately, it’s a great marketing exercise. So this gives me not only a little bit more kind of stature in the industry, and gave me a chance to really kind of pull together all of our research, all my different experiences, and package it in a way that’s helpful to our potential buyers, but it also just gives me something to talk about on podcast, and it gives me something to kind of, you know, just, you know, it, just it I get invited to panels now, so it just, it broadens my thought leadership and brings more visibility to myself into the brand, which ultimately kind of fuels the consulting company. That makes sense. Okay, definitely.

Kris Safarova  31:58

So for someone reading your book, what are the key things you want them to take away?

James Turk  32:05

So, great question. So I think that you know that, that you, you know, to thine own self, be true. So Shakespeare talked about this. So, so when you go into people leadership, you know, you know, our whole hook here is, it’s a giving game, not a getting game. So, you know, you know, in the 20th century. It was all around, very militaristic, and it was very much of a tell world. You know, in today’s environment, it’s much more around, you know, you know, engagement and how can we ask? So as I think about my leadership, how am I going to ultimately succeed? So I’m going to succeed by helping my people succeed in kind of service to the client or to the organization. So how do I do that? So really putting that in the forefront. So that’s establishing the right relationships with your team. So who are they? What are their interests? What are we doing? So really being clear around kind of who those people are. What’s the current state, establishing relationships really horizontally across your business. So, what are the dependencies, you know, who are the vendors that you partner with, you know, how are those relationships working? What needs to be changed? And then, thirdly, really defining your leadership style or brand. How do I want others to see me right? Do I want to be kind of, you know, you know, kind of expert in these areas. Do I want to be known as a leader that develops my team? So I think really thinking through like, who are the relationships and kind of how you see yourself as a leader, I think is really important. In the book, we talk about how to do that, and we have a playbook we call the first 45 day playbook, which really gives them what to do in the first two weeks, the second two weeks, weeks three and four, and then the final two weeks, which are weeks five and six, like what to do, how to do it, which is really meant to kind of accelerate people’s being successful in role.

Kris Safarova  33:59

Can you share some examples of giving and how it helps someone succeed?

James Turk  34:05

So I would somebody says, good question. So, in, you know, the kind of world of, you know, working with teams, you know, we have a, I have a client who is in, you know, it’s a biotech client, and they are in a very senior sales role. And they have, you know, kind of their area manager, and they have kind of, you know, account managers that report into them, you know, and in helping them prepare for what was going to be a presentation to the brand slash franchise heads, which are like very senior people with any one particular product, you know, coaching this senior salesperson on kind of how best to kind of present. You know, the initial thinking was to for this person to present to the senior people so that they had their moment in the sun and they could show their x. Expertise in their ability. But through coaching, we talked about like, well, you know, what would it look like if you were going to actually maybe delegate this to someone on your team that you have identified as a high potential, that you are trying to kind of create opportunities for them to grow? You know, what would that look like and and, you know what? What would kind of giving them the opportunity to look like, and then we kind of like, flush that out. And then the person was like, I think this could work with with a lot of coaching, and say, well, let’s, let’s do that. And we created this opportunity for their direct report to actually be the one to present to senior leader, to the most senior leadership franchise heads. And they did really well. And so not only did that person kind of have their moment in the sun. And indirectly, it helped the person I was coaching, because they were seen as having the maturity and the confidence to actually create that that moment. So kind of, you know, be giving and give the direct report, the kind of main part of the stage, and then understanding that I will kind of actually benefit from that as seen as the person developing them, and to have kind of seen the opportunity to do so. So that’s kind of, you know, giving mindset versus like, Oh, this is like, Yeah, I’ve been waiting to get front of this franchise head for a long time. This is my moment. No, like you let someone else take the stage, let them do it, help them succeed. That’s a giving mindset.

Kris Safarova  36:20

And when you work with clients, teaching them to be giving, when do they struggle the most in implementing it?

James Turk  36:30

Probably just through the pressures of running a business. So like market conditions, deadlines, change management, technology, it’s fine to sit in a coaching session or even a training program like, yes, James, sounds good. I’m gonna be a giving leader. But then when there’s like systems are down, it could be very, very difficult for them to actually do that. The tendency is to kind of shift from, you know, you know, asking inquiry, how do we want to do this? And, you know, into a more kind of pragmatic, you know, here’s what we’re going to do. Sometimes that’s understandable, but we have to be careful of that, right? So even in crisis, that’s that’s out, that tells me who you are, like, how you actually behave in crisis. So really, those are the times where it’s most important, where you might be tempted to kind of jump in and take control again. Sometimes you need to, depending upon the risk, but but really, in those moments, making sure that people still have the opportunity to let them still have their authority, let them still kind of drive things forward without prematurely cutting it off.

Kris Safarova  37:31

And when you work with clients, do you have clients who struggle to figure out how they can be giving leaders?

James Turk  37:38

Yeah, the struggle of how they can be giving leaders. It’s just, you know, their idea of leadership is, you know, leave people alone. I don’t need to kind of tell them what to do. I don’t need to, you know, I and most leaders that I know are not only you know, kind of leading teams, but they also have their own deliverables, right? So they’re, they’re both. They’re their player and coach, right? So, so they will kind of default to their player mode, and they’ll kind of, you know, leave the team on their own. And, you know, there’s like, oh, it just they’ll be fine. And sometimes they are. But like, you know, I often it’s around like, No, you need to kind of give your employees the opportunity of feedback. You need to let them know how they’re doing, like, what’s working, what’s not, you need to kind of help build their capabilities by coaching them and creating opportunities. And that might be and often those are the people that ended up in the people leadership roles because they were technically very good and never had training. So all of a sudden they find themselves in these roles and they don’t really know how to do it. So it’s more, you know, not wanting to their their fear of not doing it well, their fear of kind of intruding into their direct reports. You know, space, even though it’s kind of their role, are usually the reasons why they don’t do it. And for me, just as a coach and as their consultant, I’ll often just kind of mirror that back to them, you know. And again, you know, this is a consultant. You know, everything’s got a soft corner to it right, so nothing’s absolute, no one’s right or wrong. But as their coach or consultant, I would just mirror back to them. Here’s what I’m seeing. So I’m observing that you’re giving them so much autonomy and so much leeway that it’s ineffective in their their their chewing through hours that the budget doesn’t have, simply because they don’t have lack of direction. I’m going to challenge you to say, like, is that really the best use of of their time? Or, you know, have you given them the benefit of the feedback? And then in that kind of process, we’ll get to this idea of it being more so part, part of your role as a leader is to kind of give them the respect of being honest with them, timely feedback and the like.

Kris Safarova  39:49

From your own career, what is your favorite story of giving and then being successful as a result?

James Turk  39:58

No, it’s great. So, so when I was. You know, mid 20s, living in New York, I was in human resources, working at Goldman Sachs, got recruited to go to trade publishing, and I was junior, I was working in the benefits area, and I had, like, two years of experience. Was going after this role that required, you know, between, they were looking between four and seven years of experience. Somehow they called me in, and I made it through all these interviews. And I was just very surprised. So I was like, in my mind, I was like, I’m too Junior for this role, because I was going after, I was basically going from benefits analyst to benefits manager, and I landed with the final interview with this guy, Bob Sherwood, who I talked about him in the book, and in the interview, I, you know, very nice guy. And I did the best I could, but I walked out thinking that I had really blown it. That’s like, okay, really blew it. And to my surprise, the next day, the offer came in, all right, and I was excited about so I took it few like a, you know, six weeks later, I’m enrolled at the at the job, Bob called me into his office, and he was the senior vice president of HR, and he’s like, all right, James, I need you to about about something for you. I want you to go to sales conference in Chicago and represent the department, and you need to present this video of me talking about some stuff, and you need to introduce yourself to all of these sellers. It was like 350 I think, and etc. And I was horrified, because I never done any this before my acting days, I’d never done any type of like public speaking, and I was terrified and but he just very systematically read that I was nervous. He’s like, you’re going to be fine. You know, in your role here, it’s important for people to get to know you. This is a great way to do that. I think I have a sense from you just through the interview and seeing you the last couple of weeks that this is going to be something that you’re going to be really good at, so I want to give this opportunity to you, and I’m going to coach you and set you up for it. And I was nervous, and he was also, he wasn’t really asking me if I wanted to do it. He was kind of telling me. So I was like, I guess I’m going to do this. And and I did it. And, you know, I was nervous, and it was okay. It wasn’t great, but he taught me something just really important, that just kind of trusting my development in someone else. And had he not done that, I wouldn’t be here talking to you today, because that process fundamentally helped me see myself differently, like, Oh, I could be this guy on the stage and I could be kind of talking about things, and I could be kind of helping others understand something or learn something. And so that that was like the that was like the real that was a real example of giving that I benefited from.

Kris Safarova  42:33

I want to wrap up with two favorite questions of mine. Number one is over the last few years or over your entire life, whatever you feel comfortable with. Could you share with us two, three aha moments, realizations that really change the way you look at life or the way you look at business?

James Turk  42:51

So for me, so I grew up in Mississippi, young of seven kids, and I it was terrific, but my I had parents who had a drinking problem, and so that just formed the way that I saw the world for the first, like, 10 years. And, you know, there’s a lot of love, but just a lot of chaos with alcoholism and and then the that parent, it was my mother. She got sober when I was 10, and then, you know, so I got to see kind of, you know, in her drinking years, I was able to develop a lot of social awareness, and I could, like, read a room and really have a few plans that I was considering depending upon what transpired. And then, then she got sober, and so she, I kind of saw, like, the worst of it, then I saw her get better, and then kind of all that. So that really stood out as a way to just, you know, the way I see the world that, like I It helps me be really understanding of giving other people second chances. So we all have our our burdens and things that happen, but it’s really important that people get be given a second chance. So in my own life, I kind of felt like I was given a second chance. Like later in my 20s, I struggled with some of the similar things, and then was able to kind of pull it together, and people gave me second chances. So I think that’s probably the biggest one. So, you know, giving people second chances, having empathy for others, has really kind of shaped the way that I see the world.

Kris Safarova  44:14

And I’m so sorry you had to go through those challenges.

James Turk  44:17

Yeah, I appreciate that. But ultimately, I, you know, it’s, I’m so it was, it was, it was my life plan, and I, and I, you know, it was I, I don’t regret it, but it just, it helped me. It helped shape the person I am today. And so now, like, you know, it did, I’m completely comfortable with it, because it’s just, yeah.

Kris Safarova  44:37

You just would not be the same person without.

James Turk  44:40

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

Kris Safarova 44:44

I totally get that. And then the last question, if you could instill one belief in all of our listeners, hearts and minds, what would that be?

James Turk  44:53

That they matter and that they can have big impact in these roles as consultants? CEOs, every time we interact with the whole organizations or individuals, it’s an opportunity just to, just to make it, make things better.

Kris Safarova  45:08

James, thank you so much for being here, for everything you said, for being so open. Where can our listeners learn more about you? Buy your book? Anything you want to share?

James Turk  45:17

Sure. So I appreciate that. And this is wonderful conversation. Kris, I could talk to you for a couple more hours, so go to our website, the turkgroup.com There you’ll find links to buying the book, The Giving game, becoming the leader that others want to follow. You’ll also see some of our research papers. You’ll see some. We have a multimedia platform called Turk talk, where videos of me talking about different things. Then, of course, LinkedIn. so we would love to hear from you all.

Kris Safarova  45:43

James, again, thank you so much for being here.

James Turk  45:47

Thanks, Kris, talk to you soon.

Kris Safarova  45:49

Our guest today, again has been James Turk. Check out his book. It’s called The Giving Game. And our podcast sponsor today is StrategyTraining.com. If you want to strengthen your strategy skills. You can get the Overall Approach Used in Well-Managed Strategy Studies. It’s a free download, and you can get it at firmsconsulting.com/overallapproach. And you can also get McKinsey and BCG-winning resume, which is a resume that got offers from both of those firms. And you can get it at firmsconsulting.com/resumePDF. Thank you so much for tuning in, and I’m looking forward to connect with you all next time.